Allegro Club International

[David Smith]

Hello,

Does the timing need to be retarded or advanced to allow for modern unleaded petrol?

Thanks Dave

[Laurence]

It is recommended to retard the ignition timing a tad but if you use non supermarket super unleaded 97 octane & don't gun it for miles down the motorway you won't need to retard the timing.

[Katie Dibsdall]

My Allegro (Silvia) is struggling to start. My brother Colin and I have been checking the settings including the timing. I have an 1.3L A+ engine which has been converted to use unleaded and wondered whether to retard to basic setup of 11o. The battery is fine, contact points gap is fine and fuel is reaching the engine. The sparkplugs were black have been been cleaned and once running we will adjust the carburettor to run leaner. The car has sat for a long time though. The starter motor and it's relay have been used on my brother's car and were fine.

Other anomalies are the clock does not start when the battery in contacted, the indicators are also affected and the handbrake lamp does not light (assumed blown bulb but haven't checked).

Any suggestions gratefully received. Many thanks Katie

[J Dawson]

Hello Katie. Have you checked some of the plugs for a spark by removing them, attaching the HT lead and earthing them against the engine, watching for a spark at the tip? I would strongly advise against adjusting the timing if it was running fine when laid up. The carb should ONLY be adjusted once the engine has done a good run and is fully warmed up, and the engine received a good service - points gap checked etc. The plugs, after a good run, should be grey in colour.

Something else which springs to mind is that modern petrol has a tendency to go off very quickly. Disconnect the fuel line from tank to pump. Pour some fresh fuel directly into the float bowl and try starting. It may take a few attempts but my money is on stale fuel.

The timing settings in the 'shop manual are useless as modern fuel is so much different from the old grades. Once running, advance the timing until the engine pinks under load and back it off slightly.

Note that the 1300 was designed to run on petrol with a minimum 97 RON rating. I highly recommend Shell V-Power with a dash of 2-stroke oil, on which I cover some 10,000 miles a year of clean, sweet running.
_________________
Austin - you can DEPEND on it!

1976 Allegro 1100 4-dr saloon

Squeak, rattle & roll

[Laurence]

Have you tested to see if there is a spark @ all the sparking plugs?

If there isn't a spark there, test to see if there is a spark from the ignition coil.

If there isn't a spark from the coil king-lead, test to see if there is 12volt feed to coil + (pos.) or SW.

The lights/indicator problem could be a blown fuse No4 (35Amp) or poor connections to that fuse & maybe some of the other fuses in the main fuse box could also have bad connections to the fuses.

Also, check the engine earth & battery earth straps for good connections/continuity.

It may be an idea to spray the distributor cap/leads etc. with WD40 in case damp is causing the start fault.

[Katie Dibsdall]

Hi

I looked at the fuses and these seemed intact and the connections were not corroded.

I will check the sparks and the main engine earth connection. The battery connections have already been dealt with.

The car wasn't running well before being laid up and in fact that is why it was taken off the road - although we have sporadically managed to start it since.

Will try fresh fuel also. I don't recall what I bought for it last but it may have been the more expensive grade - it was only being used occasionally.

Many thanks,
Katie

[J Dawson]

Do let us know how you get on.
_________________
Austin - you can DEPEND on it!

1976 Allegro 1100 4-dr saloon

Squeak, rattle & roll

[Laurence]

Have you tried replacing/testing the indicator flasher unit?

Some cheap units are very tempermental/don't last very long

[Laurence]

It may be quicker/safer/easier to spray engine easy start into the carburettor intake with the air filter removed (don't use choke) in order to determine whether the petrol in the system is past it's use by date.

If the engine starts after a small squirt of 'Easy Start' into the carb, the starting problem is fuel related ie not enough fuel or poor quality fuel.

If the engine doesn't start easily after a small squirt of Easy Start, don't continue to spray loads more into the carb in an attempt to start the engine as you could cause a fire/explosion.

[Colin T]

OK I've got Katie's car going now.

I couldn't work out why it wasn't starting when we had a go on Thursday, so today I 'started from scratch' - engine earth cleaned (prob not this as it turned over very quickly beforehand), all ignition connections cleaned, distributor removed, contact set loosened and points set correctly, refitted at static timing of 8 degrees and points just beginning to open, HT leads removed and refitted in the right order, spark checked on No. 1 at 8 degrees but turning by hand and probably more stuff besides that I can't remember.

Running now but a bit rough, unfortunately the 'automotive analyser' we have doesn't give a stable RPM reading so to do the timing I'm going to have to remove the rev counter from my car and fit it temporarily to Silvia.

I did have my car running on 10 year old petrol about 5 years ago, could stale petrol really prevent starting or just cause poor running? It hasn't been the cause of non-starting in the instance - luckily as there is half a tankful.

Black plugs may be due to choke being left open as warning light is dodgy? Dunno.

So, back to the OP's query about timing:

How much retard (or advance?) should a car with standard valve seats get?
How much retard/advance for a car with an unleaded conversion? Silvia is a 1.3 A+, originally 11 degrees BTDC @ 1500RPM.

I'm assuming using 95RON, not sure how much difference that really makes.

I'm not sure at all about advancing until pinking a I don't know what it sounds like (don't think I've ever heard pinking before, guess that's a good thing!).

Any help greatly appreciated.
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Hell has frozen over...... the car formally known as 'Heap' is back on the road!

[J Dawson]

The car will run on standard 95 grade fuel but for best results use 97 super grade in a 1300, as it has a higher compression ratio and this fuel will give better results, i.e. more power. The correct fuel is important as in this case the timing may not be suited to the cheaper grade. 97 RON has greater anti-knock properties than 95 RON. Check the Owner's Manual for the 1.3 A+ but I'm pretty sure the fuel grade is the same as earlier engines.

The plugs are always black after cold-starting - they need to be checked after a good run.

Regarding the timing you can turn the dizzy anticlockwise (iirc) by a fraction each time, listen to the car running for a change in engine speed and rougher or smoother running. Find a hill where you can put the car in top gear and when the engine is starting to slow in 4th listen for a slight knocking or 'pinging' sound. If you hear it back the timing off slightly and that setting will be perfect.

Does the engine run-on when switched off hot, or kick against the starter? If not then no need to worry about timing.

Note the fine-tuning to the timing should only be altered once the engine is well warmed-up, you can check the static timing with everything cold of course.

My money is still on stale petrol though. If the car was running well when laid up and the timing hasn't been altered it is the most likely culprit.

I also forgot to mention to check the oil level and grade in the carb. dashpot.

Good luck and I hope it gets sorted.
_________________
Austin - you can DEPEND on it!

1976 Allegro 1100 4-dr saloon

Squeak, rattle & roll

[Graham]

Did you replace any parts? Try a new condenser.
Good luck,
Graham

[Katie Dibsdall]

Hi

I don't think Colin replaced parts - the condenser was almost new.

Thanks to all for your help.

Katie

[Colin T]

Thanks for the replies.

The car wasn't running well when left to stand (I think this was in part why it was left) and the timing has since been lost - it does have the Lucas 45D4 without the fine tuning adjustment knob.

I'm sure it's going to have 95RON in usually, so will go with that.

Carb has been topped up, no running on or kicking back, just needs setting correctly before checking the CO before MoT - the car has had issues in the past with emissions being too high so we just need to get it all right to avoid a failure item.

Book timing is 11 BTDC so I'll try at 10 or 9 and take it from there to adjust to the smoothest running.
_________________
Hell has frozen over...... the car formally known as 'Heap' is back on the road!

[J Dawson]

OK - possibly running much too rich then. What mileage has the engine done?

Will either be a simple case of adjusting the mixture (once fully warmed up, of course) or stripping the carb to check for wear.
_________________
Austin - you can DEPEND on it!

1976 Allegro 1100 4-dr saloon

Squeak, rattle & roll