Allegro Club International

[Chris Williamson]

Seeking advice with an electrical problem that came on all of a sudden today. I havent used my VP a lot since I got it in September, bodywork, paint, other commitments, etc, and although I fitted a new battery when I got it, it has always seemed to struggle to start.
Today I tried to start it and it gave all the symptoms of a drained battery again so while it was charging I decided to change the points.
That done I tried to start it, but all I got was a clicking from the solenoid. I hit it, I hit the starter motor, I rocked it in gear, nothing. All connections are tight so I called a mechanic friend. He suggested bridging the bolts on the solenoid where the live cable and the starter cable bolt on, this should fire the starter. I tried it with ignition off and on, no sign of life what so ever, just the clicking when I turn the key.
Is the solenoid dead, is the starter dead, does the sluggish starting point to something,any suggestions and remedies would be appreciated

[Laurence]

The problem could be caused by a
duff battery
corroded/dirty battery posts & connections
corroded/dirty connection where battery earth cable attaches to body
corroded/dirty connection of engine earth strap where it attaches to the body & engine
corrosion/dirt on starter motor pinion gear so the pinion doesn't easily move along the shaft
burnt/dirty solenoid tips
corroded/dirty connections to solenoid/starter motor
worn starter motor brushes
defective motor windings etc
So if you check & clean those items which you can & it still won't work take the battery & starter motor & have them tested at a Starter Motor & Alternator repair specialist, the starter motor may need an overhaul and you can confirm the battery is OK, cheers, Laurence.

[Chris Williamson]

Hi Laurence

Think I may have narrowed it down to the starter motor. Followed all your advice, cleaned all contacts, fitted a new earth lead as the one on the car looked past it but nothing , just clicking. I then realised if I turned the bolt head type thing poking out the motor before engaging ignition I could heard a whirring for a few moments, so I hung a spanner on it, turned the key and it fell off!
1)Does it sound like a new motor is required or does it sound like new brushes etc required?

2) Can it come out with the dip stick tube in position, it looks very close?

3) Does anyone within a reasonable distance of Coventry have a useable motor they could sell me at a good price because I am going to have one hell of a job justifying yet more expense on "that wreck"(not my words! ) to my better half!

One other odd thing, the clock has stopped too, any connection? Cant seem to find a fuse for it , any suggestions?

[AlexB]

Chris,
I may be able to shed a little bit of light on this one as I've had similar starting problems myself lately. Following Laurence's advice, this turned out simply to be a jammed pinion on the starter motor- sounds like it could quite possibly be a similar scenario with your's.

My starter would 'whir' until the battery flattened leaving the solenoid to click away. I suggest you take the start motor out to have a look and see if the pinion does move up and down the shaft freely by hand, if it doesn't, then it needs freeing off. Pop it back in with a freshly charged battery and see what happens. I had a spare starter motor that was a little bit lethargic and no longer up to the job, I was quoted £25 to have it overhauled, whereas a reconditioned unit off ebay cost me just £15 plus £5 p+p, so it needn't cost that much afterall!

My vote says it's the starter motor after recent experiences but I'm no technical guru!

Cheers,
Alex.
_________________

'When you're travelling economy, go first class'

[Laurence]

I don't think it's a good idea to place a spanner on the starter motor shaft & then operate the starter motor.

The starter motor is held in with two bolts which when removed should allow the starter motor to drop away at an angle from the engine, be prepared for some black dust to drop out of the flywheel casing hole when you release the motor so protect your eyes if you lay underneath.

Disconnect the battery before you begin to remove the starter motor.

From your description it seems you have an 'inertia' type starter motor fitted & has a similar fault to AlexB's, so take out the starter motor & give the pinion gear & shaft a thorough clean, getting rid of the dust & corrosion.

I doubt if the brushes are excessively worn unless the pinion gear has stuck in mesh with the flywheel ring gear with the engine running.

The fuse for the clock in the VP is No1 fuse which is also the fuse for the horns, so if the horns work the fuse must be OK, cheers, Laurence.

[Chris Williamson]

Hi Laurence,

Sadly the saga of the clicking solenoid continues. I followed the advice you and Alex gave, disconnect power, remove lead from solenoid, unbolt and remove starter. All inside seemed fine, no obvious wear,everything moved freely so I cleaned it, wiped everything with an oily rag, reassembled, turn key, click!

Unless something within the motor has given up the ghost I am at a loss as to what else could be wrong. Powers getting to the solenoid and I heard the motor whirr once when I turned the key so it is getting that far.

Oh yes, and the horn works so fuse 1 is OK, but oddly still no clock, still 1st things 1st!

[Laurence]

Hi Chris,
If you have the old inertia type starter motor ie seperate solenoid, you can bridge the battery cable posts on the solenoid & the motor should spin. If it doesn't it points to a starter motor fault.

If you have the pre-engaged type starter motor, remove the starter motor after disconnecting the battery, place the motor in a vice or put it on the ground & be ready to hold it with your foot.
Using a pair of jump leads connect the black lead to the motor body & the other end to the battery negative, connect the red jump lead to the solenoid post where the red battery cable was attached & the other end to the battery positive post, then bridge the solenoid battery post to the spade connector where the ignition switch wire was attached, the starter motor should now spin so make sure you're holding it with your foot!
If it doesn't spin, the pinion gear fork could be sticking on its pivot so it's not returning fully.
Disconnect everything & squirt WD40 onto the fork pivot & work it to & fro as much as you can to free it up.
Now re-connect everything & try again, if the motor doesn't spin it may need new brushes or will need exchanging, when you ask for a new/replacement starter motor, make sure you ask for the correct type ie
seperate solenoid is the 'inertia' type
integral solenoid (piggyback) is the 'pre-engaged' type.

Remove the clock & check for 12volt supply & check for earth connection using a multimeter. If both are good you will need a new clock, I think the Citroen BX19 uses a Kienzle clock like the one in the VP, cheers, Laurence.

[Chris Williamson]

Laurence,
Think I have confirmed starter motor is shot. Removed it, connected jump leads and at first nothing, then with a bit of persuassion it started to spin, very slowly then it speeded up and ran for a good 3 - 4 minutes before winding down to almost nothing again, so you can imagine what I will be hunting for over the next few days!
The plea still goes out to anyone within a reasonable distance of Coventry (say 30-40 miles) who has a useable one they can sell at a reasonable price to let me know here or on anaabwilliamson@netscape.net

[Laurence]

Hi Chris,
I think you should 'prove' the battery is a good one, it could be 'flat' or it could have one defective cell which would give the symptons you describe.
Either make sure the battery is tip-top or use a known good battery for the tests on the starter motor before you condemn the starter motor, cheers, Laurence.

[Chris Williamson]

The end is in sight!
Went to the trouble of visiting the garage where Brian the VP slumbers, extracted his brand new battery, connected it and waited for the whizz of spinning motor which never came, so obviously this was an ex motor, it had died, it had ceased to be , it had run up the curtain and joined the choir invisibule, this was a late starter motor.

I visited 2 scrap yards today,asked if they did starter motors, both said they did but were taken aback when I slapped my motor on the desks, "Nah, nothing that old" was the most complex answer I got so I decided to bite the bullet and visit a Starter +Alternator repairer.
I told him I thought it may have died, he took it and connected a cable to it, , "Yeah, it's fu - - -" er, well lets just say he didnt think it would work again, so tomorrow I collect a shiny newish one and hopefully normal service will be resumed.

[Laurence]

Hi Chris,
Sounds fairly conclusive then if the motors THAT bad
Hope the new one solves the problem, cheers, Laurence.

[AlexB]

Did you try eBay Chris?
Usually plenty on there circa £20.

Cheers,
Alex.
_________________

'When you're travelling economy, go first class'

[Chris Williamson]

Hi Alex,
I looked on ebay and there one or two going from £20 +£9 postage but they specifically said 1100/1300 engines, mine's a 1500 so I wasnt 100% sure it was suitable so I might end up with the problem of returning it ,(assuming they would have it back). I'm paying £40 all in for what I presume is a recon model with 12 months warranty from a shop 3 miles from home, he has my original so it should be a like for like replacement and I get it back tomorrow

[AlexB]

[Chris Williamson]

Thanks for asking, Yes it seemed the motor was the problem, new one fitted and car starts straight away now. Thanks to everyone for the advice.